Tag Archives: Oaks North

JC Golf: Golf Fest Returns To Oaks North On March 6th and 7th

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For the third straight year, Oaks North will be hosting Golf Fest, a two-day showcase of the latest equipment and a host of other golf-related products and services.

The event drew around 2,000 people last year and Oaks North Head Professional Lloyd Porter expects a strong turnout again. Golf Fest is on March 6 and 7 this year from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.

“Both days, there’s a huge rush at 9 a.m.,” Porter says. “People are lined up all the way down the fairway. For a typical golfer, it’s exciting because you can see everything in one spot. There aren’t a lot of opportunities like that in Southern California.”

Golf Fest is an event for all ages and abilities. While adults sample products, juniors and beginners can play a six-hole loop for free, with a paid admission ($10 – children 10 and under are free. Parking is $5). Free lessons from a JC Golf pro are also available.

But the big draw is the new equipment, which is set up for testing on the driving range. This year’s vendor lineup includes Callaway, Cleveland/Srixon, Cobra, Ping TaylorMade, Tour Edge and Wilson.

Representatives from each company will be on hand to assist with testing and to answer product questions.

“You’re talking to the experts on every product,” Porter says. “And you’re actually on the driving range so you can see what’s going on.”

And equipment can be fit on site as well, meaning golfers can play their new equipment the same day. The North and East courses remain open for play during the event.

“We’re unique in that we keep the course open,” Porter says. “You can play golf and then enjoy the show.”

Around 70 vendors will be on site, providing everything from custom putters to range finders to massages.
Food (hamburgers, grill chicken sandwiches) and beverages (beer, soda) are also available as part of day that has a carnival-like atmosphere.

Other highlights include:

– A trick shot exhibition at 1 p.m. each day.

– A putting contest on the 9th hole of the South course.

– A hole-in-one contest on Saturday at 3 p.m.

– A goody bag provided by Golf Fest

And to make Golf Fest an even better value, paid admission includes a free future round of golf (Friday – Carmel Mountain Ranch; Sat. – Twin Oaks).

“You can’t lose,” Porter says.

To purchase advance tickets or learn more about the show, go to www.golffestshow.com.

SCGA: Hacking Away – An Update on the 15-Inch Golf Hole in SoCal

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The following is a story I did for the SCGA’s FORE Magazine updating local courses adaption of Hack Golf. You can find the article and issue here:

http://plusfore.scga.org/dec2014/Default/7/0

Standing over a 35-foot birdie putt on the ninth hole of the east course at Oaks North in Rancho Bernardo, I’d never felt more confident about sinking a long putt in my life.

Aiming at a hole the size of a large pizza will do that.

And sure enough, my putt, hit firmly at the left edge of the oversized hole, gently sloped in for a two on the closing par 3.

And with that, I had the experience the founders of Hack Golf wanted to me to have – increased ease of scoring.

The 15-inch cups have been in place for more than a month now and Oaks North Head Professional Lloyd Porter says the game is finding its audiences. He reports that young juniors in particular like the oversized holes as do couples.

“He’ll play the regulation holes and she’ll play the 15-inch cups,” he says. “The women really like it because it takes away some of the intimidation factor. When they hear about it, they say, ‘I’d try that.’”

Couples, kids, juniors and beginners are the ones most drawn to game, according to course managers.

“It definitely appeals to certain age demographics,” says Jason Egnetz, general manager at the Lomas Santa Fe Executive Course in Solona Beach.

Lomas and Oaks North have been joined by The Ranch at Laguna Beach and the Desert Willow Golf Resort in Palm Desert as early adapters. TaylorMade Golf, and particularly former CEO Mark King, are founders of the concept and recruited 100 courses nationally to introduce the concept.

At Oaks North, the 15-inch holes, designated by a flag with a “15” on it, also come with their own tees, shorter than the whites. Those tees boxes are comprised of two large orange balls stamped with a “15.” There’s also a 15-inch cup on the practicing putting green.

At the course greens at Oaks North there’s a regulation hole on one side of the green and a 15-inch cup on the other. At Lomas, the 15-inch cups are in the back, making them less intrusive of traditional play.

While the new game is easier, Egnetz stops short of calling it easy.

“You still have to the ball to the green,” he says, “and even then it’s not as easy you think.”
Perhaps the best use for the new holes, Egnetz says, has been as a complement to another novelty game: Glow ball.
“You can see the hole better,” he says, “so people seem to be having more fun with it.”

But the holes themselves are no longer a novelty, report Lomas and Oaks North. They’re now a fixture.
“The holes are here to stay,” Porter says. “This is for the next generation of golfers.”

If you’re looking to take your round on the 15-inch cups as more than practice and looking to go low, Oaks North Assistant Golf Professional Steve Lyons and I have come up with three scoring tips for you.

1. Putt aggressively – There’s no reason to hold back and your best bet is often to go straight at the hole. With a 15-inch cup, the ball isn’t jumping out. As painful as leaving putts short normally is, it’s doubly so here. See it and hit it firmly.

2. Go for the middle of the green – This timeless golf scoring strategy especially holds true on the 15-inch holes, none of which are in the middle. The greens are set up with a regulation cup on one side and a 15-inch inch on the other. Put yourself in the middle on every hole to have consistence chances to score. All you’re looking to do is set up a putt and then take advantage of the advantage the game is giving you.

3. Chip with irons, not just wedges –
We talked previously about the scoring mentality of short-game shots on 15-inch cups. Unlike a normal round, you’re not necessarily looking to give yourself the best leave. You want to score – and a wedge isn’t necessarily your best bet for doing that.

Trying chipping with your 7-, 8- and 9-irons for your best scoring chances. Why? Those clubs don’t impart as much backspin and roll out more.

On the practice chipping green, hit practice shots with these clubs to learn how far they roll out and then allow for that on your shot. And these are shots that can come in handy in your normal round. Truthfully, most people don’t utilize these shots enough and teaching pros preach that you have better control of a ball on the ground than in the air. Here’s your chance to work on it.

San Diego Tourism: SD’s Five Best Courses for Kids

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Left: Oaks North. Right: Reidy Creek.

This post is part of an occasional series for the San Diego Tourism Authority. You can find this post on their site at http://www.sandiego.org/articles/golf/5-kid-friendly-golf-courses.aspx

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Golf is a game for all ages, but it’s now more kid-friendly than ever in San Diego thanks to a new way to play the game.

In late summer of 2014, two courses in San Diego installed 15-inch cups, making the hole about the size of a large pizza, as a part of TaylorMade Golf initiative termed “Hack Golf” designed to draw new players to the game by making scoring easier.

Oaks North in Rancho Bernardo and Lomas St. Fe, both executive courses, were among the first adapters. Oaks North dedicated its nine-hole east course to the new game while Lomas St. Fe committed all 18 holes, hosting a 15-inch cup and a regulation hole on each green.

The new game has especially been a hit with kids, juniors and couples, say course managers in the area.

“The holes are here to stay,” says Lloyd Porter, Head Professional at Oaks North. “This is for the next generation of golfers.”
Players on the “hack” courses also get the benefit of forward tees.

The following list of top courses for kids in San Diego starts with those two courses and includes others known for being particularly hospitable to kids, juniors and beginners.

1. Lomas Santa Fe Executive Course – Course architect William Bell is best known for designing Torrey Pines, but he also built this 2,431-yard gem in Solona Beach. Lomas has been named one of America’s “Top Short Courses” by Golf Range Magazine the past two years and consists of all par 3s, save two 4s, and has an ocean view from the eighth tee box. Lomas is also the only course in the county currently offering the 15-inch cups on 18 holes. The holes are all placed in the backs of the greens so as not to be obtrusive to regulation play. Lomas also offers Glow Ball night golf on a semi-monthly basis, giving beginners, kids and juniors another way to enjoy the game.

2. Oaks North – Nine of Oaks North’s 27 holes are set up for “hack” rounds, but all three executive nines are terrific for beginners.

The east course hosts the 15-inch cups, but even played with the forward tees, the new game hardly reduces the course to pitch and putt. Three of the tee shots are more than 200 yards, giving younger players ample room to swing away and hit clubs all the way through their bag.

The 15-inch holes are donated by flags with the number “15” and orange balls with the same number on the tee boxes.

JC Golf originally had an introductory offer of nine holes for $15 for the east course (cart not included), but visitors will find all three nines affordable, playable and walkable and the practice facility, which includes a 15-inch cup as well, a great place to learn and be taught.

3. St. Mark Golf Club/Lake San Marcos – These two courses in San Marcos are a doubly good destination for kids because they pair a playable regulation course (St. Mark’s) and an executive course in the same community complex.
St. Mark’s hosts a number of junior tournament. Its largely flat topography and manageable yardage (6,398 yards/par 71) make it ideal for juniors and beginners, though a long par-5 on the back and a severely elevated par-4 on the back provide a test.
Lake San Marcos’ recent renovation included new cart paths, but the course is plenty walkable and a pleasurable stroll while honing your iron and short-game play. A new clubhouse is also in the works.

4. Reidy Creek – Even if you’ve experienced a number of executive courses, chances are you haven’t played one like Reidy Creek in Escondido.
Two things in particular make Reidy Creek unique: the setting and its sophisticated greens.
The course winds through a wooded area in the shadow of the Escondido mountains, making it more like a miniature version of a regulation course than what people largely associate with executive courses.
Sometimes-severe bunkering and heavily sloping greens make scoring a challenging even though the course is played entirely with irons.
Reidy Creek is an aesthetically enjoyable and challenging way to learn the game.

5. Mission Bay – Located just minutes from downtown, Mission Bay is an executive course owned and run by the City of San Diego.
Speaking of setting, how do ocean breezes and night lighting work for you? You can enjoy both on this par 58 that includes four par 4s.
Unlike some executive courses, Mission Bay also has a driving range.
And if you like a little history with your golf, Tiger Woods won a Junior World title here once.

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JC Golf: “Hack Golf” Finds A Home At Oaks North

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Standing over 35-foot birdie putt on the ninth hole of the east course at Oaks North, I’d never felt more confident about sinking a long putt in my life.

Aiming at a hole the size of a large pizza will do that.

And sure enough, my putt, hit firmly at the left edge of the oversized hole, gently sloped in for a two on the closing par 3.

And with that, I had the experience the founders of Hack Golf wanted to me to have – increased ease of scoring.

The 15-inch cups have been in place for more than a month now and Oaks North Head Professional Lloyd Porter says the game is finding its audiences. He reports that young juniors in particular like the oversized holes as do couples.

“He’ll play the regulation holes and she’ll play the 15-inch cups,” he says. “The women really like it because it takes away some of the intimidation factor. When they hear about it, they say, ‘I’d try that.’”

And they are. Porter says the game is finding a following, though it may be a little too soon to jump to catching on. People are still discovering it during its curiosity phase, he says.

But the new holes are more than a curiosity at the course, Porter says. They’re a fixture.

“The holes are here to stay. This is for the next generation of golfers.”

The 15-inch holes, designated by a flag with a “15” on it, also come with their own tees, shorter than the whites. Those tees boxes are comprised of two large orange balls stamped with a “15.” There’s also a 15-inch cup on the practicing putting green.

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The east course is the only nine of the 27 holes at Oaks North to have the 15-inch cups. Before last week, it was the only nine I hadn’t played.

Having played it, I think it’s an ideal nine of host the 15-inch holes. With three holes measuring 200 yards or more, there’s more opportunity than most executive courses to hit woods or rescues off the tee.

That means golfers getting exposed to the game on the 15-inch holes are getting something close to the full experience. In other words, it’s not just irons and wedges.

The only difference is at the green, where there’s a regulation hole on one side of the green and a 15-inch cup on the other. Not only is putting made easier by the larger holes, the short-game scoring possibilities greatly increase. If you’ve got a 20-foot chip, you’re trying to hole it.

That’s where the game really changes and can be good practice if you’re open to the experience.

If you’re looking to take your round on the 15-inch cups as more than practice and looking to go low, Oaks North Assistant Golf Professional Steve Lyons and I have come up with three scoring tips for you.

1. Putt aggressively –
There’s no reason to hold back and your best bet is often to go straight at the hole. With a 15-inch cup, the ball isn’t jumping out. As painful as leaving putts short normally is, it’s doubly so here. See it and hit it firmly.

2. Go for the middle of the green –
This timeless golf scoring strategy especially holds true on the 15-inch holes, none of which are in the middle. The greens are set up with a regulation cup on one side and a 15-inch inch on the other. Put yourself in the middle on every hole to have consistence chances to score. All you’re looking to do is set up a putt and then take advantage of the advantage the game is giving you.

3. Chip with irons, not just wedges – We talked previously about the scoring mentality of short-game shots on 15-inch cups. Unlike a normal round, you’re not necessarily looking to give yourself the best leave. You want to score – and a wedge isn’t necessarily your best bet for doing that.

Trying chipping with your 7-, 8- and 9-irons for your best scoring chances. Why? Those clubs don’t impart as much backspin and roll out more.

On the practice chipping green, hit practice shots with these clubs to learn how far they roll out and then allow for that on your shot. And these are shots that can come in handy in your normal round. Truthfully, most people don’t utilize these shots enough and teaching pros preach that you have better control of a ball on the ground than in the air. Here’s your chance to work on it.

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hackholes

Oaks North is the course of the month for JC Golf this month and the $15 introductory offer for nine holes on the 15-inch cups still applies. Call 858.487.3021, or go to jcgolf.com, to book your round today.


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JC Golf: It’s Time To Join the JC Golf Junior Tour

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Image courtesy of www.juniorgolf.com

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Sign up has begun for JC Golf’s 10-week Junior Golf Tour, which starts Sept. 21 and is open to boys and girls ages 10 to 17.

Besides tournament experience, the tour presents weekly prize opportunities in the form of free golf rounds, with the grand prize for flight winners being free golf for an entire year.

The boys compete in age groups of 10-13 and 14-17, while the girls division is open.

While some of the competitors are experienced tournament players, program director Steve Lyons, Assistant Golf Professional/Tournament Coordinator at Oaks North, said some of the first players to sign up this year were tournament novices.

“For a lot of kids, this is their introduction into tournament golf, which is great because that’s what we’re looking for,” he said.

The experience is made fair for all, Lyons said, by the use of handicaps.

“We want to make it as level possible, so each player will get a handicap differential after the first event and then we’ll build their handicap from there,” he said.

“We don’t wants to kids to stay away or be intimidated because they might be playing against players who are at a higher level. It’s tournament golf, yes, but we still want it to be fun.”

The weekly flight winners win a free round of golf at that week’s course. The grand prize winners are determined based on a points system that rewards both participation and performance, similar to the PGA Tour’s FedEx system, Lyons said.

Other participation incentives include opportunities to partake in things such as driver and putter fittings provided by TaylorMade Golf.

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All the JC courses, save for Carmel Mountain Ranch, are used in the Sunday tournament rotation, so the players get to experience a mix of regulation and executive courses.

Each week also presents a chance to gain tournament experience, which Lyons said is essential to securing a competitive future in the game.

“Tournament golf is whole new realm,” he said. “If you get exposed early, it does nothing but build confidence as you get older. And that can lead to being on a high school team and eventually a college team. This gives you that foundation.”

And Lyons also stressed that the tournaments provide a broad range of experience as players join the tour from all over San Diego County. And those are the players the game is depending on, he said.

“Golf needs kids not only playing, but playing competitively. Competition is what the game is all about.”

There’s a one-time registration fee of $30 to join the tour. Beyond that, it’s $35 for 18 holes.

For more information, you can contact Lyons directly at 858.487.3021, or slyons@jcresorts.com.


Below is this year’s tournament schedule.

Schedule
Sept. 21 – Oaks North
Sept. 28 – Reidy Creek
Oct. 5 – Rancho Bernardo Inn
Oct. 12 – Encinitas Ranch
Oct. 19 – Reidy Creek
Oct. 26 – Oaks North
Nov. 2 – Encinitas Ranch
Nov. 9 – Temecula Creek Inn
Nov. 16 – Twin Oaks
Nov. 23 – Oaks North

Note: Consult www.jcgolf.com/junior-tour for more information, such as registration and weekly tee times.


JC Golf: Oaks North Hosts First 15-Inch Cups in JC Golf

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After a brief experimental period using them on the putting and chipping greens, the 15-inch cups went live on the east course at Oaks North last week and have been well received, says Lloyd Porter, Head Professional at Oaks North.

“The feedback has been good, and actually really good,” he says.

The cups are part of an initiative sponsored by TaylorMade Golf to make the game more accessible for who amateurs who don’t play often or non-golfers who might be discouraged by the difficulty of scoring.

JC Golf has offered Oaks North and Encinitas Ranch to be among the 100 test courses TaylorMade sought to recruit for the concept, termed “Hack Golf” by TaylorMade CEO Mark King when it was announced at the January PGA Show.

At the launch event at Pauma Valley last spring, King explained he got the concept from a novelty hole he played in a charity tournament once.

Besides increased scoring, the holes are also meant to improve pace of play by drastically reducing the time spent on greens reading putts, etc. Porter says that goal has already been realized.

“It’s unbelievably faster,” he says. “It would be fantastic (for pace) if it would catch on.”

JC is making the experience affordable and memorable by offering nine holes on the 15-inch cups for $15 (cart not included). For reference, by the way, 15 inches is larger than a paint can, but smaller than a basketball hoop.

Porter says younger players have been especially receptive to the concept.

“One of our junior camps went out and a kid chipped in for a birdie and sank a long putt. He was so excited,” Porter says. “Those are probably the first two birdies in his life. So the kids can really relate to the scoring part of it.”

The east course features two holes – one regulation and one enlarged – on each green. The location of the larger hole is noted by a flag with a “15” on it.

Having both holes is providing exposure to the game to players who book 18-hole rounds, Porter says, whether they chose to play the larger holes or not. (Rules note: If a ball goes in the larger hole during a regulation round, simply take relief and consider it a hole made by a greens keeper. And vice versa.)

Porter says it’s too early to draw any conclusions about the impact of the holes on new players, but reports that so far the launch has been successful.

“It’s going to take time to catch on,” he says, “but so far the feedback has been very positive.”

To book your nine-hole round for $15 at Oaks North, go to www.jcgolf.com or call 858.487.3021.


JC Golf: What a Ball Fitting Is and Why You Need One

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Bridgestone Golf will be conducting ball fittings for the first time this year at Golf Fest, March 14th & 15th at Oaks North Golf Course in Rancho Bernardo.

For those unfamiliar with what a ball fitting is and how it can benefit your game, we provide the following interview with Johnny McFarland of Bridgestone, who will be conducting the fittings at Golf Fest.

The reason for a fitting is simply to determine the best ball for your game to maximize distance and precision. People tend to underestimate the impact of the ball in this equation, McFarland says.

The fitting is done on a launch monitor that measures club head speed, ball speed and spin and then derives the best ball to optimize those conditions.

McFarland says the fitting begins with the player hitting a new ball with the brand he or she is currently playing. After five or six swings, the players switches to a comparable Bridgestone ball.

McFarland says that in 75 percent of cases, the Bridgestone ball – one of the eight the company produces – outperformers the players’ current brand.

“In the other cases, the ball is working and we’re happy to tell them that,” he says. “We’d love to have you as a customer, but we can’t improve much on what your ball is doing.”

Since Bridgestone switched from being Precept nine years ago, it has become the No. 2 ball in golf, behind only Titleist.

In that time, McFarland says the company has conducted more than 250,000 live ball fittings.

“We tested everyone from a 15 year old to an 80-year-old woman,” McFarland says, “and across all handicaps.”

That mountain of data is what the company uses today to help match players to their ideal ball, which is rarely Titleist, McFarland says.

“Titleist makes a great ball,” McFarland says, “but it’s not for the average duck. You have to have a swing speed of 104 mph or higher to compress the Pro-V1, and that’s not the average player.

“Yet 50 percent of players play a tour-grade ball.”

While Bridgestone has products to serve the pro player, it’s just as adept at helping the player with the 94 m.p.h. .swing speed, which is the average amateur, McFarland says.

What follows is a Q & A with McFarland about the benefits of ball fitting and what your game might be losing by playing a misfit ball.

Q. Let’s cut to what everyone wants to know: How much of a distance difference can a ball fitting make?

A. It can be as little as four to nine yards, but I’ve often seen it be 10 or more. It’s quite eye-opening when you get on the machine and do a comparison.

But when you’re swinging your own driver and wearing your own golf shoes, there’s no gimmicks. And you can’t deny the data. The results are often dramatic.

Q. How much do people underestimate the impact of the ball when trying to improve their games?

A. People still put a lot of time, money and effort into buying a driver when putting a little more money into the right golf ball is likely to give you more improvement. That’s just the way it is.

But I think people are starting to see the error of their ways.  And I also think they’re getting better at telling the difference in ball performance.

You can put all of our balls on an Iron Byron and they’ll end up about the same distance, but how they’ve gotten there will be totally different. Some will be high or low, or have a little more side spin, and that’s exactly what they’re designed to do.

People are coming around but it’s still very much a one-person-at-a-time education for us.

Q. What’s Bridgestone’s latest product advancement?

A. The newest thing is the B series, which has a rubber core, but in the formulation they inadvertently added water to the mixture and it changed how it reacts. The outer edges are 30 percent firmer and the center is 30 percent softer.

That takes some spin off the ball, which we all know makes it go further.

They’ve just started carrying these in the pro shop, but the pros on Tour already have them. They using will test a ball for two months before adding it to their bag, but they using these within a week. That’s how good it is.

We’re looking forward to a great year.

Q. How long does a ball fitting take? 

A. We can do it in about 10 minutes if it’s a busy day, but we’re happy to spend more time with people if they really want learn.

Q. What’s one of the most valuable things a player can learn?

A. We can tell you what your max drive is, meaning what’s possible for you to achieve with your swing speed.

For instance, I swing it at 92 m.p.h., so I’m never going to drive it 300 yards. We can determine what your max is and then fit you to a ball to help get you there.

That said, hardly anyone achieves their max. (Tour pro) Matt Kuchar’s max is 301 yards and he hits it 299, which is unbelievable.

We’re not so much interested in how far you hit it now but far you could hit and then helping you get as close as we can.

And we’ve done that for a lot of people now. That’s why our retention rate is so high.

Each person who participates in a ball fitting with get a free Bridgestone two-ball pack. For more information about Golf Fest, or to register, go to www.jcgolf.com.

JC Golf: First Impressions of Oaks North

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First Impressions of Oaks North

When I entered into this agreement with JC Golf, I had played all their North County courses except one – Oaks North.

I’d heard good things about the 27-hole executive course in Rancho Bernardo, and every time I drove by it always looked to be in fantastic shape, but I just hadn’t had the opportunity.

Well, that opportunity arrived last Friday, and I have to say that I enjoyed this course very much.

I’ll play an executive course on occasion to focus on my irons, wedges and short game. By that measure, Oaks North gave me everything I was looking for.

On that note, I thought I’d highlight the five things that made my round at Oaks North valuable and enjoyable.

 1.   Birdies Galore

You come to an executive course to make birdies, which I did, but the unexpected bonus was the amount of wildlife on the course. Song birds and water birds abounded. Having only lived in California for about 18 months now, I’m still amazed and amused by the variety of wildlife here.

The highlight of the round came on the third tee of the South Course at around 9:30 a.m. As we were approaching the tee, a white heron was on the box. Rather than be spooked by our approach, it lingered on the box for about 5 minutes before casually strutting off into the landscaping.

I very much value these small encounters with nature and think they add a great deal to the golf experience.

My first golf birdie came on the next hole when I drove the green on the 260-yard 4th and two-putted. I carded three birdies in my round but would’ve had twice as many I’d made a few more putts.

Which brings us to …

2.   The Greens

The greens at Oaks North were in great shape and provided just enough of a challenge to keep things interesting.

You don’t get any severe breaks or pin locations at this course, but you do get enough break in your putts that you’ve got to make a good read. These aren’t the no-break tabletop greens you find at some executive and municipal courses.

 3.   A Variety of Tee Shots

I only hit the same club on consecutive tee shots once. I had 8-iron on back-to-back  shots on Nos. 5 & 6 on the North, which might not have been the case with a different wind or another pin position.

Otherwise, the tee shots varied nicely and worked most of my bag. I played two holes that were over 300 yards, just enough to air out my driver.

There’s actually more distance here to work with than at a few other executive courses I’ve played in the area, which is nice.

4.   Frozen Snickers

I’ve been known to have a sweet tooth at the turn and frozen Snickers is my snack of choice.

Oaks North has them. I always think a little more highly of course that thinks to stock frozen Snickers. Well done.

 5.   A Great Walk

I did not walk the first time, but I will the next time.

I enjoy walking my rounds and wish I had more options in the area in that regard. Oaks North is an ideal place to carry your clubs, or grab a pull cart, and enjoy the walk and take in the scenery at a more leisurely pace.

Though it can be a brisk walk, too. There’s no reason you can’t get around here in 3 hours, which I think is something as Southern California golfers we can all appreciate.

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